Wondering if Your Toddler or Young Child has Autism? Listen to This.

0:00Welcome to Magnificent Minds, where we explore the science of child development with both heart and reason, bringing clarity, compassion and scientific evidence to questions that matter deeply to families. If you clicked on this episode because you are afraid your child might have autism, I want to start by saying this. You're not alone. That fear, that uncertainty, that swirl of late night questions that run through your mind like, you know, is this normal? Should I be worried? Am I missing something? Every parent I've met has been there in some form.

0:38Today's episode is for you. My goal is to bring comfort, clarity and encouragement to help you understand what's really happening when a child might be showing early signs of autism and why getting answers sooner rather than later can actually be a powerful and positive turning point. By the end of this conversation, I hope you'll see that an autism diagnosis isn't the end of something. It's the beginning of understanding your child more deeply and helping them flourish. Autism can sound like a big, heavy word at first.

1:13But what I want to help you see today is that it's not a verdict. It is information. It's a way to understand how your child's brain is wired, how they see the world and how they learn. And when we understand that, we can meet them right where they are and help them shine in their own way. When parents first suspect autism, a mix of emotions flood in fear, confusion, sadness, maybe even guilt or grief. You might feel hope one moment and heartbreak the next. You might think, what does this mean for my child's future?

1:51Or did I do something wrong? These are natural questions and I want you to hear this clearly. Every single emotion you're feeling is valid. It's understandable and is normal. Parenting, even under the best of circumstances, is already filled with uncertainty. The early years, especially those first few, are some of the most intense. You are running on little sleep, learning your baby's cues, tracking developmental milestones, and wondering if every new behavior is something to celebrate or something to worry about.

2:30I don't think there's a single parent who hasn't seen their child to do something unexpected and wondered, is this just a phase? Or is it something more? When you add the possibility of autism, those worries can magnify. It can feel like the ground beneath you is shifting, because suddenly you are imagining a different future than the one you had pictured. But here is something I've learned after many years of walking this journey with families. These feelings are not permanent. They evolve. What starts as fear often transforms into understanding and eventually into empowerment and peace.

3:13When parents get clear answers, when they know what's going on and can begin a plan, there is relief. Because now, instead of guessing, they can take action. A diagnosis does not take away your hope. It helps to focus it. And over time, parents often tell me they wouldn't trade the clarity they have now for the uncertainty they felt before. I have had so many parents tell me that the time before diagnosis was actually the hardest part, not because of the therapies or the work that came later, but because of the waiting.

3:51The not knowing, sort of, you know, this endless loop of what is. But once they had a name for what they were seeing, the fear began to lift, because now they had a roadmap. They could learn, plan and move forward. Let's talk about what the early signs of autism can look like. No two children are exactly the same, and autism can appear in many different ways depending on age and developmental stage. Now, some signs might be noticeable very early in infancy, while others may not emerge until a child reaches preschool or even later.

4:30It's not usually one single behavior that raises concern, but it's the pattern across areas like social interaction, communication, sensory experiences, and responses to the world around them, and movement patterns. So let's go through what that might look like across the different stages of development. We'll start with early infancy, that period between 0 to 12 months of age. Some babies make less eye contact or don't seem to look toward people's faces as much. They might not consistently respond to their name or to familiar voices.

5:07Others might seem less interested in social games like peekaboo, or they might not follow your gaze when you point to something. You might also notice delayed or absent gestures, like not waving, clapping, or imitating facial expressions. Some parents describe it as a sense of their baby being in their own world, or harder to connect with. Some babies during this age range show repetitive movements like finger or hand flapping or head rocking. And they might also show differences in their motor development.

5:44Some have delays in meeting motor milestones, or they need those motor milestones differently. These might look subtle, but can be early indicators of how their sensory and motor systems are organizing information. Sensory differences can also appear very early, such as heightened reactions to sounds, or to textures, or to lights. Some babies are more irritable. They might be labeled as colicky. Others may be the opposite. More quiet, less fussy, and labeled as easy babies. Both patterns can sometimes be part of early signs of autism, and occasionally a baby who was developing typically may lose skills like babbling or eye contact.

6:31That kind of regression can be particularly concerning, and it's always worth bringing this up with your pediatrician. In toddlerhood, differences can become often easier to see. So you might notice, like for example, reduced engagement with peers, maybe delayed or atypical language. For example, what's called echolalia. Meaning, repeating the words that someone has just said. Another type of atypical language development is scripting, where a child might say word for word scripts that they have heard.

7:08For example, on videos. During this age period, there can also be fewer gestures, like pointing or showing. And some children might prefer to play alone or may become very deeply absorbed in activities like spinning objects or lining up toys. Now, these aren't bad behaviors by any means. They often actually serve a sensory or emotional purpose for the child. The key is when those interests, crowd out opportunities for interaction or communication or learning, that's when they become, more concerning. Sensory sensitivities are also common.

7:45For example, strong preferences or avoidance with things like food or clothing textures. Some toddlers may refuse certain textures, when it comes to food. They might even gag easily. Others might crave specific sensations. They might crave, for example, pressing against surfaces or against people, or watching things spin. You might also see atypical motor or movement patterns like toe walking, hand slapping, or other types of repetitive movements and emotion regulation can also be tough.

8:21So you might see intense tantrums, difficulty calming or self-soothing, and maybe distress when routines change. At this age, those first few years of life, the brain is highly adaptable. So recognizing and supporting and understanding these early signs can make a tremendous difference in how easily a child can then, receive the support and services to learn, to communicate, and to connect with others. What about during the preschool ages and early, early years of elementary school?

8:56Well, as children enter preschool, social differences again might, appear that weren't noticed before. A child might struggle with making or maintaining friendships, understanding social cues, or starting conversations. They might prefer to play besides others rather than with others. Communication challenges can include receptive, so understanding communication from others or expressive so expressing language art expressing their communication with others.

9:31There could be delays in language development difficulty with the back and forth aspect of conversation, which is called reciprocity. Some children speak fluently, but then might have trouble understanding more abstract types of language or abstract concepts, or may have trouble, for example, understanding humor, sensory selectivity in this age may show up as again, sensitivities to types of food or clothing or other aspects of the environment like, sights or sounds. Repetitive behaviors and strong special interests often emerge, sometimes in surprisingly advanced areas like for example, memorizing subway maps or countries or other aspects of geography or animal species.

10:19So it can look a lot of different ways. Emotion regulation challenges might show up as frustration, rigidity, or anxiety around transitions. These can sometimes be labeled behavioral issues. But really they're a child's way of communicating that they're experiencing stress or sensory overload. Why does early diagnosis matter? Well, early diagnosis is powerful because the first few years of life are a period of rapid brain growth and plasticity. During this time, experiences and therapies can literally shape and reshape neural pathways.

10:57So brain networks. Now we often say that the brain is plastic in early childhood. It is going through so many different changes and really learning how to learn. Every time a baby looks at a caregiver's face or a toddler hears a new word. The brain builds connections that shape, how the child thinks and feels. When we identify autism early, we can introduce therapies like speech language therapy, occupational therapy, other types of developmental therapies, and behavior therapy, or what's called ABA.

11:33These can all be done in ways that harness the brain's natural plasticity. These experiences can strengthen communication, emotional regulation, and social engagement. When they're done well, it's also important on a practical level. So many insurance plans require an official diagnosis to access certain therapies, including ABA. So an early diagnosis helps families unlock those supports sooner. Even beyond these practical benefits. A diagnosis brings emotional clarity. It replaces fear with understanding and confusion with direction.

12:09It allows parents to see their child not as being behind in some way, but really developing on their own timeline and helping them to support them, to then support that timeline. One of the most important reasons why early diagnosis matters is because there are some medical tests that should be done urgently when a child receives a new diagnosis of autism. Tests like electroencephalogram, which is also called EEG, that gives a very detailed look at a child's brain, their brains, electrical patterns of firing. A test like genetic testing that can give us a lot of insight into the child's unique biology.

12:48Metabolic or biochemical testing that can tell us things about the body's unique biochemistry and whether certain supports might be needed in nutrition, like adding certain vitamins or supplements. These medical tests can open the path to getting essential medical treatments for your child. And this is, in my view, the most important reason why early diagnosis matters so much. Now, who can make a diagnosis and what can you expect from the diagnosis? Well, a diagnosis can be made by a medical doctor, like a pediatrician, neurologist, or a psychiatrist. It can also be made by a psychologist or by a qualified advanced practitioner, like a nurse practitioner or physician assistant, under the supervision of a doctor or psychologist.

13:33The process of making a diagnosis of autism includes gathering a detailed medical and developmental history, direct behavioral observation, and often a structured assessment. So let me tell you more about each of the structured assessments that are most commonly used today. How they're done and what they can tell us. First, the Autism Diagnostic Observation Scale, which we abbreviate and call the ADOS. You can think of the ADOS as a structured play session that's really a window into your child's natural, social and communication style.

14:09During the ADOS, a trained clinician, often a physician, psychologist or therapist, spends time doing activities that feel like play. They might blow bubbles and roll a ball back and forth, maybe offer a snack, or look at a picture book together. While it might look simple, every part is carefully chosen to create opportunities for a child to communicate, share attention, and to respond socially. The clinician isn't looking for a right or wrong answer. They're observing how your child engages with them. Do they make eye contact?

14:45Do they point to, things to show interest in them? Do they use gestures or facial expressions to communicate? How do they respond to their own name or to social cues? Because it's play based. Most children enjoy it. For very young kids, it often feels like a fun playdate with someone new. But behind the scenes, it gives the clinician a very structured, evidence based look at social and communication skills. There's also another type of structured assessment called the Autism Diagnostic Interview or ADI. The ADI is all about your story as a parent, because no one knows your child better than you do.

15:24It is a detailed, structured interview that usually takes place with a clinician, while your child may be placed in another room, or it can take place when your child is not present at all. Sometimes it's even done virtually. It covers your child's early development, language milestones, their social behaviors, their interests, and any patterns that you've noticed over time. Some of the questions you'll be asked go way back. For example, when did your child first use words, or how did they respond to other people as a baby? Others look at current behaviors such as your child currently enjoy being around other children.

16:00Parents often tell me that the ADI feels like sort of walking through their child's developmental journey. Step by step. And it can be emotional, sometimes validating, sometimes bittersweet. But it's one of the most powerful ways to capture what daily life looks like in your home. The clinician uses your responses to identify patterns that are consistent with autism, and to rule out other possible explanations for certain behaviors. One more structured assessment for autism is called the Childhood Autism Rating Scale, or CARS for short. The CARS It's like putting the whole picture together.

16:37Blending what you share as a parent with what the clinician directly observes in your child during or after the CARS evaluation. The clinician then rate your child and a series of areas such as communication, social relationships, emotional expression, flexibility and adaptability, and sensory sensitivities. Each area is scored along a continuum from sort of typical behaviors to behaviors that are more characteristic of autism. Now, the strength of the cars is that it combines structured observation with parent insight.

17:12So it reflects both what happens in the clinic and what you see at home. It helps determine not only whether autism is present, but also how strongly features of autism are appearing. From mild to more pronounced. Now, how do we put it all together? Well, each of these tools, the ADOS, the ADI and the CARS gives a slightly different perspective. The ADOS, for example, shows us how your child interacts in the moment, in real time. The ADI tells us what those patterns have looked like in the past over time.

17:47And the CARS helps quantify and summarize those findings using input from direct observation, but also from, the developmental history. Puts all these findings together into a clear overall picture. These kinds of structured assessments can be part of a comprehensive and reliable autism evaluation. And they're really centered on your child's unique profile and strengths. Now not all of these are needed. Your doctor, psychologist or therapist will select which, if any, of these should be done based on what's most important in establishing a diagnosis for your child.

18:23At my clinics at Cortica, we can do any of these assessments, but the CARS is the one that we actually do. Most often because it blends interview and direct observation. So right now diagnosis is based on behavioral criteria, but research is rapidly advancing. Scientists are studying potential biomarkers like eye tracking. Are there patterns of the way a child uses their eyes that can be diagnostic of autism? They're also looking at EEG brain patterns. They're looking at immune markers.

18:59And one day these tools very likely will help us identify autism even earlier than we can now. But still, for now, experienced clinicians remain the most accurate diagnostic test for autism that we have. And these structured assessments like the ADOS, the ADI and the CARS, and we do all of them at Cortica clinics, they can be a very helpful component of making an autism diagnosis. So how do you go about getting an autism diagnostic assessment for your child? Well, the best place to start is with your child's pediatrician. Ask who they typically refer families to for autism assessments in your area.

19:37You'll likely hear about professionals such as developmental pediatricians, pediatric neurologist, psychologists, or child psychiatrists. Now, one challenge that many families face is very long wait times. Sometimes 6 to 12 months or even longer, especially at large medical centers or university affiliated clinics. And that is simply too long to wait. When your child is in the most critical stage of brain development, I sometimes have used the phrase that time is brain and early childhood. And so it's incredibly important to get an autism diagnostic assessment quickly and not to sit and wait on a waitlist.

20:16This is one of the things that we take very seriously. A Cortica, which is why we have expedited pathways for scheduling autism diagnostic assessments for children ages five and under. Once autism is diagnosed, there are several important next steps. Some medical and some developmental. These are the things that can make the biggest difference when started early. First, medical testing. And let's start with an EEG or electroencephalogram. This is a test that measures the brain's electrical activity by placing small sensors on your child's scalp.

20:51It is painless and noninvasive. An EEG helps identify patterns in the brain that might suggest differences in brain signaling, or might even detect seizures. And we know that seizures, which are, patterns of firing the brain where many neurons are firing in a hyper synchronous way, so there's almost too much, electrical firing happening within too large of a region of brain at the same time. We know that seizures do occur more often in children with autism. Research studies estimate anywhere from 15 to 25% of autistic children have seizures at some point in their lifetime.

21:32Detecting and treating these issues early is so important, and it can improve learning development and even improve things like sleep quality and certainly, can improve language, communication, socialization and behavior. Another set of important medical tests to do are genetic and metabolic tests. These tests help us understand more about your child's unique biology and whether certain vitamins, nutrients, or metabolic pathways in the body might need additional support. We know that children with autism are more likely to have deficiencies.

22:07For example, in vitamin D, vitamin B12, iron and other nutrients that the brain relies on. So identifying and correcting these can improve attention, energy, and overall brain function. Metabolic disturbances include things like mitochondrial dysfunction. There's been a lot of research in this area in autism in recent years. I'll devote a whole episode to mitochondrial dysfunction and autism soon. But testing for mitochondrial dysfunction is another area that's really important to do early on. It's also critical to begin the right developmental supports as soon as possible.

22:47And these might include, first applied behavior analysis, which is also called ABA. Now, ABA helps children learn new skills by breaking them down into small, achievable steps and reinforcing success. And today's ABA really should be done through play and positive interaction, which is different from how much of ABA has been done in the past. Today's best ABA does not mean sitting at a table using flashcards. It looks like joyful, natural play that follows your child's interests while building communication, flexibility, and independence.

23:25Another important therapy is speech language therapy, which supports how children understand and uses language, whether that's through words, gestures, pictures, or devices. The goal is to help your child find their voice and strengthen the back and forth of communication in everyday life. Another important therapy is occupational therapy, which focuses on everyday skills like dressing, eating, for some children. Writing. It focuses on sensory processing and ensuring a child is comfortable in their sensory environment.

24:01It uses playful hands on activities, and through these therapies help children improve coordination, manage sensory sensitivities, and feel more confident and calm in their bodies. It's called occupational therapy because it's focusing on the things that are part of a child's occupation. And really that means play, self-care skills, movement and the kinds of things that children should, be doing. And learn so much from. Another therapy to consider is physical therapy. And this is the type of therapy that builds physical strength, balance and coordination so children can move confidently whether they are running, climbing or playing with friends.

24:43It supports gross motor development. So those movements of the of the arms, trunk, torso, legs or those large scale movements. And it helps kids fully participate in active play and in daily routines. Music therapy is a type of developmental play based therapy that is really wonderful, for enhancing brain development. Music therapy uses the tools of music like rhythm, intonation. And it embeds these in playful interactions that follows a child's lead.

25:19It uses the tools of music to nurture attention, communication, emotional connection, and does all this in a very natural and engaging way. There are many, many other types of therapies you might consider as well, but these are some of the most central and most, influential in a child's early development. Now, unfortunately, just like long wait times for diagnostic assessments, there can be very long wait times for these types of services. So at Cortica we really prioritize access for children five and under two services and aim to begin therapies within 2 to 4 weeks. Because we know that there's a window of greatest neuroplasticity in the early years of life, when the brain is most ready to learn and grow, because we have the medical tools to support that development.

26:02And so we want to ensure that children of this, age range are also getting access to the appropriate developmental and behavioral therapies as quickly as possible. Now, just as important is starting therapies. It is also important to make sure that they are coordinated, because when therapies happen in isolation, without communication between therapies or the integration of developmental and behavioral therapies with medical care, they can sometimes work at odds with one another. So, for example, a child's repetitive movements might be viewed through a lens of a behaviors that need to be reduced, when in fact they could be related to sensory regulation or to an underlying neurological condition.

26:45And so getting to the root cause is so essential and may not happen if your child is in an APA only program. A feeding issue is another example. And sometimes ABA only programs will approach these as behavioral, concerns. And are just not equipped to address the medical reasons that might underlie a feeding issue, like reflux, like oral motor weakness or even sensory factors like taste sensitivities and aversions. So it's it's really so important that therapies are aligned medical, behavioral and developmental because then children can make faster progress.

27:23They can experience less frustration and they can develop skills that truly last. In recent years, there has been a growth of ABA only therapy centers which do not treat the whole child. And you should know that these are incomplete treatments and should be seen as a lower quality option that do not have the ability to maximize your child's progress. If this is all that's available to you, you may need to choose it. But if you have the option for an integrated ABA developmental therapy and medical program, this is the gold standard. It can feel overwhelming to start down the path of autism services.

28:00There is a lot to learn and a lot of decisions to make, but every one of these steps the medical tests, the therapies, the coordination are there to support your child's growth. Learning and to help them thrive. And you are not alone in this process. With the right team and with timely support, your child's potential can unfold in ways that are truly remarkable. Remember that a diagnosis does not define your child. It helps you understand them. It's a lens that brings clarity, direction, and compassion. Every child has many possible futures.

28:36Autism helps explain their path. It does not limit it. I've seen countless children who began their journey with uncertainty go on to thrive academically, socially, and emotionally. Once they received the right supports for parents, diagnosis can be an invitation to learn. A doorway to new understanding. Once you know how your child's brain works, you can adapt your parenting style, your communication, and your expectations in ways that make life easier and better for everyone. Here are some real stories from families that I've worked with.

29:11There was one mother who delayed diagnosis because of fear, but later she said to me it did not label him. It actually unlocked him with the right supports. Her son began to communicating, playing and expressing joy. She told me that before the diagnosis, every day felt like trial and error. But afterwards, she had a team and a plan. Another child I worked with really struggled in mainstream preschool, but then thrived in an ABA and developmental blended program. His teachers didn't understand the sensory needs in his preschool, and he spent a lot of the day in a stressed state in a state of fight flight or freeze with, you know, over activation of the body's stress response.

29:57But once he began a structured program with therapists who understood how to support him, he blossomed. He began speaking in sentences, participating fully in group experiences like circle time and showing just laughter, joy, and engagement with his the other children in the program. And I'll tell you about one more parent, a father who I'll never forget. He had so much fear around the word autism. He absolutely did not want his child to have an autism diagnosis.

30:32He worried that others would judge his son, or that it meant his son's future was somehow limited. And, And he really thought that with an autism diagnosis came a loss of hope. But after connecting with other parents and even with autistic adults, he said to me for the first time I felt like I could just love my son exactly as he is. And all of these stories remind us that after diagnosis, life is not over. Really. It is just the beginning and the beginning of a wonderful and bright future. I'm excited to invite to join me today a mom of a young boy and she's here, Victoria, to tell us about her process of getting an early diagnosis for her son, Rowan.

31:18Victoria, I'm so happy to see you. And yeah, I just love that we get to have some time together to chat and, we have known each other for quite a long time. For a really long time, I think it was. Rowan was about two when I met you. Not even do. And how old is Rowan now? He is going to be 13 in May. So he's 12? Yeah, yeah. So about ten years. We've known each other for a decade. Yeah. And as I mentioned to you, this episode is about the importance of newly new diagnosis and early diagnosis.

32:00And as I was writing the the kind of bring together the information for this podcast, I thought about you and Rowan a lot, and I actually remember the day that we were together in my Mission Valley office. And yeah, and I think it was yeah, it was our very first time meeting. Yeah. It was I had I think I had went into that office. There was a lady that was doing, his psych eval, and she had recommended and wrote it on a little. I wish I still had the little sticky that wrote your name on it and said, you know, you should just check her out.

32:37And then I made an appointment right away with you. Yeah, yeah, it was a tiny little office. And I remember Rowan and you and Chris were there, and, Yeah. So that memory is very powerful for me. And of course, it's just, I mean, just been a joy for me to get to be a part of everyone's life. And and see all his growth and amazing progress over the years. Yeah. And it's been great. Like, you've been extremely supportive and helpful throughout the whole process. So we really appreciate it. Yeah. Well, I wonder if it's okay with you if we could go back to start at the beginning.

33:16Yeah. And hear about well, some of the, one of the things I think is so important for parents to know is what are some of the early signs that might, you know, suggest autism or that you should pursue gather more information? Yeah. You know, I always think there's this picture that I have of Rowan, and, I had just brought him back from the hospital, and I think it was one of the first times Chris had left, so he had to go to work, and it was just Rowan and I, and I was holding him, and there was just this connection that was kind of missing.

33:51And, you know, I'd sent it to a couple of my friends like, oh, you can't really feel it then, but I think there's such, there's a connection that happens with your kids from the moment they put them on their, on their chest. I knew that I loved him. There was just this, and radiant feeling, I would say. And then. But with Rowan, I just felt like there was something off. Like he was. You just felt distant to me. So early on, I just felt this, this missing piece that was happening. And then that's when they were like, oh, it's baby blues.

34:27Oh. Postpartum. And it just kind of it kept growing that that idea that that something just felt different between my child and I. And. Yeah, I just kind of kept fighting for more answers versus just allowing people to tell me how I should feel. And then when is your first child. Yeah. He was my first. Yeah. They had so many experience like I, I've been around kids where I'm like I have more connections with other kids that I was I used to work for a daycare and and I always nanny and kind of stuff like that.

35:02So I had been around so many kids and I, I just felt like there was something so different in us, with our connection that was happening. Yeah. Do you think Chris noticed it too? No, I don't think so. I don't think so. And we've talked about that too. I wish he was here today. He actually had to go do some work stuff. But we had said that and he would kind of thank me, which I appreciate too, because he was like, I it would have took him a long time, to recognize that there's, I don't know, just something very distinct.

35:39So you notice early on something seemed distant or off for you. And then what else is you think about early, maybe milestones or birthdays from six months to maybe a year. And up to two years. How did what else did you notice along the way? I could not console Rowan at all. He just cried all the time. No matter what I did, he was fed. He he was dry, you know, no soiled diapers. That was a big one where I was like, I don't know why this child does not want some crying. I don't know what I'm doing.

36:15He also, I would put him in the car and that would somewhat soothe him. And it seemed like loud noises were very soothing to him. I heard I would say under the vent in our bathroom quite often, and then it was more like he would just kind of space out. It wasn't like he was okay. I just remember waiting a lot of rocking. I would do all the time with him to kind of get him to calm down, and he might sleep. I think sleep was a big one, too. He just didn't sleep. It was just you would sleep for a little bit and then he'd wake up screaming.

36:53It wasn't like he woke up smiling. Wasn't like he was just, you know, refresh. He would wake up to screaming all the time. And then responding to his name he didn't do that. I remember thinking he was deaf for a while. That was very big. Just an exchange when you're like smiling at a baby or smiling at a toddler. He wasn't really doing that with us. He was happy. He just kind of, you know, if he was doing his own thing and and pacing herself. But it wasn't an exchange that was happening. You were kind of just really happy.

37:29Like, we're just in row 15. Yeah, yeah, we would do that quite often. Not really recognizing what that meant at the time. Yeah, yeah. And did he hit some of the early milestones like basic crawl walk? I think so he he hit them. They might have been a little bit off, I think crawling. He, he did the, army crawl for a little bit. Milestones as far as like that. He did. He had those. Yeah. Yeah. And then do you remember him speaking, like, when when did he first speak?

38:09Or was that early? Yeah. That was one of the things that you did not, do it. He just made noises. So there was a lot of vocal noises, a lot of humming, a lot of humming. And that's how he'd be in the car. And he would just go for hours, like, for hours in the car. And then he would do a lot of babbling, but couldn't really understand what he said. He didn't really call out for us either. Was it like mom or Dad? He hit those, but they weren't consistent and I think they were a lot later on.

38:47I remember just wanting him to talk and he just. Yeah that was not something. And what like you then then so around two was when you saw actually one of the psychologists. Well it was before I think I had put him in speech. And yeah, I think we did speech for a while. And so there wasn't much movement with that. I had reached out to a couple friends at, I think she was an avid therapist. She's like, oh, he's fine. A lot of my family and friends, they would just kind of us, you know, he's, you know, he's a boy.

39:22And that was said quite often. And then we from speech. I think I just I just felt like I knew I just there was something that was different. And I just wanted to learn how to love my kid. And I was struggling to figure out, to give him his needs. And I just I wanted some answers. So I think that's what kind of drove me. And then I know that I oh, I reached out to reading Children's Hospital, and I think their waitlist was a good 6 to 8 months to get seen.

39:58And I was like, nope, I can't. So I had found this independent person and it's like, oh, I had a rocket. I this time we will figure it out. Yeah. Did you see what happen? Yeah. So did your pediatrician. Was your pediatrician part of the deal or was it something that you kind of went on? Yeah, I went off. Pediatrician also said he was fine. Everything was great. And like, no, that's, you know, definitely not give me much confidence. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You remember how long you then waited for the independent? The private practice psychologist? She actually said that he was, I don't remember the wording, but she didn't give him a diagnosis either.

40:35She just said that he was at risk. And then I think following that, once I got that, I had made that appointment with you, walked into your office. I think that was one of the first times I ever saw Rowan sit down. And you had to sit there. I don't forget that Chris and I were just like, our jaws are like, what the heck? Yeah. And we were so calm. And he just responded to you. And then you just confidently said, like, yeah, he's on the spectrum. And it was just like, it wasn't sad. It was just kind of like, she sees us. She hears us. It was a good moment.

41:10So yeah. Yeah. That was you were the first one to give him a full diagnosis. Yeah. And he was just two, right. He just had to turn to. Yes. You know, for me, well, I it was such a delight, of course, to meet all of you. And Rowan was just I remember I could tell he was just so gifted, you know, early on. And I actually remember the moment sitting side by side with you on the sofa. And I showed you the a visual of our child development framework. Yes, I still have it, I think.

41:46Yeah. I, I loved it, I was like, this makes sense. Tell me what you remember from us talking about the child development framework together. I think the there are two things that really stood out to me. It was the bottom layer. And you said about the parents, toddler, mom and dad and where the foundation. And if we're not okay, how can we support someone that needs a little bit more? And that really stuck out for me. It also kind of helped me understand how much my journey and to my health was so important alongside of Rowan's.

42:24And then the other part that stuck out was at the top, you know, like he can go to school, he can do these things where at that point I thought, you know, I don't know what to think, really. You go online and it's not it was not good to go online. Got in my head. And I just remember you being like, he's going to be able to do so much and just kind of like so confident in it. I love that. So yeah, those are the two things that really just they made sense where I'm like where the foundation this middle part of the therapy is and what he's eating like that we can figure out together. But this part right here, we need to make sure that we're also addressing, how what does the family look like.

43:03What does that support look like. Yeah. And then when you if for so many parents, the moment they receive a diagnosis is ingrained in their memory that right, they'll never forget it. And, I actually remember this a wonderful mother who I who once told me after she got her diagnosis, she went in her car and cried for an hour by herself. Yeah. What was what was the experience like for you when you left my office? Probably the same thing. Cry. I cried a lot. Yeah. I think I remember the car ride home was very quiet with Chris, and I just kind of like, what just happened?

43:45But there was there was just kind of this. There is, like, this morning of an idea. I think I'm okay. That came with a lot of feelings. That and Christopher and I, we looked really different. And that experience to you kind of internalized it. Versus me, I just I felt like, you know, all the questions. How did we get here? This is scary. Am I equipped to be able to take care of him the way that he needs? I think all of those things really flooded. So, yeah, box of tears, I think. I'm pretty sure I cried early on.

44:21Yeah. And and months after that. But it was just, it was really nice to have, at least going somewhere because I think, I mean, that really early on, I just felt so confused what was happening. And this was like that little bit piece like, okay, we at least now have a direction. And, that that felt really good. Yeah. Looking back, would you have changed anything about how you went about those early couple couple years? No, I don't think so. I, I honestly felt like a bull was that I think that no one was going to stop me.

45:00So no, it was scary. But I think the biggest thing that I tell a lot of, women that I meet or parents is like, go with that gut feeling. And it's there like, and is it is there. And I think there's so many things that make us doubt, being parents, that there's a reason that I am Rowan's mom and I'm equipped. I might need help and support and guidance, but I have the tools, and it's just like a matter of believing in myself to listen to them at times. You know, sometimes parents that I talk with, and it's interesting sometimes the, the, the mother and father are different.

45:41You know. Yeah. One parent really wants the diagnosis and wants to then take it and help their child. Sometimes the other parent wants to not have a diagnosis and actually has good reasons for that too. What would you say to parents who are hesitant, hesitant about getting an evaluation? Hesitant about getting a diagnosis? Yeah. I feel like I've had quite a bit of families that are like that. I was fortunate enough that Christ was very supportive, and it, it does kind of take more of like, go ahead, figure it out.

46:16And, I support whatever that looks like. But I think the biggest thing when I like, think about it, I think, even when I think about Rowan, I don't think of it. His diagnosis, like the diagnosis was, it helped us with insurance. It was a means to get him the things that he needs. It was kind of like this way of walking just so we can get our footing or like this, this piece for us to get our footing to where we shouldn't be or where we could be. And that's how I, I tried to, like, think about it.

46:52Like I don't look at Rowan in any other way besides Rowan. These things just really helped us with getting support with, you know, insurance, which that's a hard part. And I'm not a speech pathologist. I'm not an occupational therapist. I'm not a neurologist. And this was our team that was supporting our kid. And like, I needed our team. So yeah. And I think looking at it that way and more, strategic I guess. And versus like that emotional because there's a label. The label and, and people label us all the time. It means nothing.

47:27Just strategically it works. Yeah, yeah. I, it doesn't didn't change who he was. He was the same boy the day before as he was the day after. And yeah, they after you had a way to get him the things that you knew would help them. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Amazing. So tell me a little bit about then what happened next. You know, what was growing schedule like, where is routines like and how did all of that proceed? I think you it came to our house one time that I like. I vividly remember and I love that that was it's one of my favorite moments because you came in and I think I had all the toys and they were all eye level and, you know, my biggest team.

48:10Yeah, yeah, they're all eye level. And he was just Mr.. Just right, though, and you were just kind of helping us understand, like removing these things and simplifying the environment. It's going to change so much. And it didn't just change for him. Yes. He was, far less destructive. And, he seemed more calmer at home. It seemed more safe for him, but also for us. I was getting really frustrated, you know, all the time cleaning up or things being broken or, it allowed me and Christopher to be able to spend more time with him.

48:50Connecting versus all of the things that were we were trying to get his attention, with the toys and books and all that stuff. So that's, that's that was a big change for us as huge. So I'm thinking about your home and what you could do even just with rearranging and, and and Matt and managing his physical environment. Yeah. Managing what we could. Yeah. Other staff like that. That took time to learn how and I just remember sitting in all the therapies as much as I could and just learning. I just wanted to learn and they I remember seeing that was like, I feel like everyone taught me how to, how to love my kid better.

49:30And I love that like that. There was no shame in it. I really like that part where I never felt shame because I didn't have the tools. It was always so welcoming of. So it's loving about questions. Yeah, I think that that those things really stick out in my mind. Yeah, but tell me about. So he was getting therapies in home. Yes. Observing a sense. Yeah. Yeah. And his therapies. Okay. Yeah. So, we started with ABA, or do we do speech? It's all a little bit of a blur, but I know we did.

50:06So let's do an a chunk. I think his schedule, when it was the most packed, we did, we were doing ABA therapy, speech pathology, our speech therapy, occupational therapy. He also was doing food therapy. Do the occupational therapists, I remember that was huge. Yes. Yeah. That's right. Feeding therapy. Yeah. Yeah. Chemotherapy. Yeah. That was that was really big because food was always a challenge. With him, what else?

50:42Like an MRT did he also have music therapy at the time? Yes. Music therapy. Loved music therapy. I feel like we're missing something, too. You did neurofeedback? Yes. Neurofeedback. And we were working together on the medical. Yes. And one of, I think one of our marriage family therapists. Yes. Yeah. That was when our counseling started. I think I started first by myself and then we did marriage counselor counseling with Christopher and I, and then I did, counseling with Gavin.

51:19Once he came on board. And so, Gavin, I was having we're having a therapy. And then Rowan eventually was doing his own therapy. Yes. We're calling there Gavin Rowan's little brother. Gavin rose, little brother. So when he started, I'm. Gosh, I don't remember what age that was, but he's done pretty early on, and that was really fun to, I remember you. I remember you acted in all the therapy sessions because some of it was at home through ABA, but a lot of it was in the center. And I remember growing in individual therapy sessions, but I was in groups.

51:54He had this group of little boys who are and, and one little girl. What was his age? Yeah, I loved the groups. That was that was great. I think sometimes. So before we had met with you, we were doing speech, before your clinic. We were doing speech, and I was something else. Maybe occupational therapy and driving around, going to all our visits and stuff. I feel like there were more, but we it just felt so separated. And I felt like it was so clinical. I don't, I don't know or dry.

52:32And then my favorite times and Christopher were doing the therapies with all of the kids there and watching your kids interact. And there's just so much joy. You just felt it. All the kids were just so happy and playful and and that sometimes you missed that, like during, you know, figuring out what's going on. And, you know, I would bring Rowan to playdates and I just I would usually leave crying like, or be in my car crying and but anytime we left the clinic, it was just it kind of it was our playdate and it was great and it was fun.

53:08And the kids watching them happy, interacting. And just by far my favorite times still comes up on my phone. Like the picture is like there was one of them singing and all the kids are around. They were taking turns singing on one of the boxes and so sweet and so sweet. Yeah. Tell me a little bit more, because I know in all of the different therapies you said, there are times when it can feel very clinical. Yeah. Yes. And you're working on sensory processing skills and fine motor skills and gross motor skills and, you know, executive function.

53:45There's so many things that are very clinical. So for you to feel that what you ended up getting out of it was a way to love Row. And better time feels really powerful and personal, and I want more parents to hear what that was like for you. Yeah. I don't know. There was just I would sit there and it makes me emotional. It is because I just. And I don't know if the therapists or you even know how much you impacted Christopher and I and that and that developed like that way.

54:23Because it it did it felt before that, before that I have this video of Rowan for his birthday, and I think it was maybe his first birthday, and we're wanting him to blow the candle. And I think Chris is holding him. I light the candle and we're kind of singing to him, and he just looks pissed. And then he starts crying. And then you see my face in it. And I just remember being like, so defeated. And I just I'm so facial. So of course I'm in that. I'm just kind of like like, okay, well let's all just stop. And, that's what it felt like for everything.

54:58Everything just felt like I would we would give effort and we were failing. And I felt constant feeling of failing make it. Didn't want to play with me. My kid didn't want to touch me. I couldn't touch my kid. He wasn't seeing our names. He didn't seem like you. He was engaging with us or happy to engage with us. I remember him falling, and he would just run to whoever to help him. Like there was nothing that was identifying me as his mom. I felt like. And, it's hard not to take that personal anger. Like, I feel bad taking that personal as a baby as a kid.

55:34But there it started. And so watching him, I also felt I remember that thinking like, is he capable of feeling those things? And I think that was a huge part for me where I was like, what is he like? Is it always going to feel like this? And then when I watched him with everyone where they understood him, oh, I just don't understand. But if I watch, I am learning and that was huge. I would watch how he would interact and and when he was having a hard time, the patience that was given or the redirection or, just the love, like the genuine love that the staff, the therapists had.

56:16Yeah, it felt great going. I enjoyed just sitting there and he would stay quiet. I'm like, please don't kick me out. I want to know. I just, and there also was like a really good feeling about watching your kid be loved by someone. And that was always really nice to, Yeah, it was very healing. Be there. Yeah. I think it's moving to me to to hear you describe it this way, because I do very much think about what we do day in and day out as an expression of love. And, you know, as doctors and therapists, we're not always allowed to talk about that.

56:56Maybe we're supposed to be more clinical, but it absolutely comes from a place of love, and then it just needs to be translated and adapted to the child and what how the child can receive it. So some of these strategies like giving more time for processing, modifying the environment, knowing when it's too much stimulation or too little. Yeah. And I wonder, were there any strategies that you picked up from when you saw him engaging well with therapists? What did you learn from them that can help you? One thing I still do, too, is they would always.

57:32All of you. Right? Get on his level. They would like physically get out of the kids level. And now there's such a big thing because we're huge. But everybody and I just remember, you know, when you're cute, little Sue, and you got down, got down on it's level, like it didn't stop you. And I think that was so such a big thing watching it was everyone constantly trying to see that, see the kid for what they need versus, you know, going in with this plan and this is the way that it needs to look.

58:08And, and pushing that versus showing up to what the kid needs and recognizing what we can push more, what we can't. I think that's something that I definitely noticed is and trying to structure our home that way, too, where it's like, I have these ideas and these ideas aren't feeding my kid. And do I want him? Do I want to push him to that? Like it? It's not. We're both unhappy in this and is this idea rooted in something that he actually needs right now, that. Yeah, that's that's that was huge. What I kept seeing didn't seem like, I go into the therapies and didn't seem like they had this very rigid plan.

58:48It was more of, how are you? How's rowing doing that day? And they were so in tune with him. And I think that's where that compassion and love came from, where they saw him meet them, where he was, still achieved so much in that session. And. Yeah, just created this very safe place. Very simple. Safe place. Yeah. Tell me what you recall about learning how to talk to growing. And how did you change the way that you spoke to him. That was big. We were flooding him with language and that is just it's still to this day, I am constantly correcting myself.

59:27He can now do so much more and, we have so much better dialog. But recognizing that my language was overwhelming him and the demands for him to tell me, things or it just it was it was making him feel, he would he would shut off. He would didn't like it for whatever reason. It just it did not work well. So simplifying the language, and especially when he's having a hard time with my language, is more in a physical way where it's if he's, you know, at that time, if he was putting himself in danger, it might be a simple no.

1:00:08And then moving him out of the danger versus sitting there and being like, no, you can't do this. And this is why. And you know that I think that was a big one for us. Our our house became a lot quieter, but in a good way. In a good way. Yeah, yeah. And then when you when you did speak, let's say he was in a calm, you know, regulated state of arousal and you did speak with him. How, what how did you choose what to say and what kinds of things would you say, like if we were doing play, it's a good question.

1:00:45I think I'm a very high energy person. So I think the biggest thing that I had to learn was to slow down, in his speech and I mean, I, I, I'm trying to do it even right now. I'm thinking like, you know, like, slow down, Victoria, do you get so excited? Oh, my God, you want to play with me right now? I ask because you do it really well. But I've I've seen you over the years make a really intentional effort to speak in ways that are maybe more more paced. Yeah, more paced, receptive.

1:01:21Not so overwhelming for him. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it is definitely. I'm still learning what it. I just noticed a big difference when I do, and I keep thinking about right now. So you know, see, Rowan, we're working on homework and he's struggling in a certain spot. And there's, there's things like reading, like he just it it overwhelms him. He he doesn't like it, but, there's two types of moms that can come up. I can be like, well, you need to do it. And I'm. And I'm doing 20 million other things, and I'm, you know, speaking fast and my energy's high, or I can slow down.

1:02:03And usually I sit and sit next to him, like, I understand you don't want to do this. I slow my pace. I like, see him in that moment, but also still push through for the demand that was that you have to do. And he just responds so much better. So much better. Yeah. So I think my, my pace and tone and how much I talk, that's definitely, definitely the one that I did, you know, versus dad, Chris could be here. Chris could be here because dad is very, very even keel.

1:02:42There is a balance. It's a great balance. Yeah I can look at him sometimes with acute. I'm like, Yeah. We have a way that we. So I'm going to want to hear more about grow and of course how we're doing now. And he's I know he's in so many great things. So I want to hear all about it. We have a way of looking at a child that we call a whole child view. Yeah. Where we actually have ten different categories. And the reason we track in this way is to make sure we haven't missed anything.

1:03:17So I would love to walk through with you that whole child. You go through each category and just talk about where one was, where he is now and grateful thing. Yeah. Anything important you remember? Okay, so the first six actually of these categories that are part of the whole child view relate to medical health, physical health, medical care because that's so important. And I think it's one of the things that when I meet parents who are just kind of new to autism, maybe the child's 18 months, two years or three years new diagnosis, I find most often this is the area where they haven't been informed, which is all of the important medical tests and evaluations and potential treatments that should be offered.

1:04:05Yeah. So so let's look at each of those six okay. So the first one is genetic and metabolic causes or contributors to autism. Yeah that's huge. Yeah. We ended up finding out Rowan had two genetic mutations and it just it changed so much for us. And and in his care it was again like this little piece for him like, yes, it could look at this like, oh but it was more of an exciting like, oh we have some answers. We can help support him so differently now. Yes.

1:04:42Team genetics is really complicated. And so, I remember when we did the testing. Do you what do you remember of his genetic variance and what they meant? And then what had what had to happen from, so the one of them was a chip occasion and one was a double or a duplication. And then triple double. So, and the only one was really that we saw was impacting him, and it was more of his muscular.

1:05:18Yeah. I think it's more of his muscular. So we just kind of support him with supplements during those times of growth. And Roman is massive. He's as tall as I am and his growth spurts were just not. He would get really sick. And he's always kind of been a little bit lower and tone. So it just helped. I feel like it helped with the therapy side, but also at home, like how to support him and what he's eating. And then the supplements that he was taking, all these things, it just helped us, it just helped us, support him better having him.

1:05:56Yeah. And. Yeah, it was a key moment finding that out. Yes. Just saying. Okay, we have some more answers on, What? Why he might not be progressing the way that we would hope. Yeah. And that's why I think it's so important for parents to hear, because sometimes there's resistance to getting genetic testing. Maybe not understanding how it could help. I think there's sometimes worry that they'll point blame to one of the parts. Yeah, yeah. So I, I completely understand all the reasons. And yet at the same time, it is one of the most important steps we can take.

1:06:31And the earlier we do it, the better. And I remember specifically for Rowan, he had three copies, you know, so of that particular section of a chromosome, he had three copies, which is guys called the triple creation. And we could then go back and look in the research and say, okay, what do we know about children who have two copies of this? What do we know about children? We have three. What do we know about children who have four? And I remember we children who have four can sometimes have much, much more severe, outcomes, even neurodegeneration.

1:07:06And pretty scary. And so we, we met and we said, okay, Rowan has three. So we do not think he's at risk for those things, but let's do the brain MRI just to make sure. No. And but we were able to then get the answers that we needed to feel good and then take the steps that would really help them. Yes, I remember that I was, but I really appreciate that too, though. As if not, I mean, there's so much potential that could have been happening, and I just, I really appreciated, that you really covered everything to make sure.

1:07:43And it just. Yeah. Because reading about it, it was overwhelming. But it can be it absolutely is. So working together and just being able to walk step by step by step, do the right things to make it less scary, I think is important. Yeah. And get the answers. And then you're right that finding those genetic variants explained a lot of why his muscle tone is so low. Yeah. It helped. Yes. And then to know, okay, let's work. Let's really focus on strengthening his his muscle. We know he has a genetic reason for it, but that doesn't mean there are things we can still do to change, because I think sometimes parents will say, oh, we can't change genes.

1:08:26True. But you can change all the downstream consequences of a gene. Yeah. That's how I remember we're going to we, we knew that it would just take more for him to get better muscle tone, strength, stamina, endurance, coordination. And so I'm focused on things like the physical therapy, occupational therapy. We started some supplements that strengthen muscle. Yeah. So carnitine creatine and some others. Yeah. Yeah. And then were doing like a mitochondrial kind of supporting that also for energy. Right. We definitely saw that.

1:09:03Well yes I do wonder which something so can if you don't remember because there are so many people without a history. It's a broad list. Supplements that. Well but ones that he's taking right now are creatine. And then he's doing like a multi and then we switch to a, a better sleep one that was recommended, by you guys. It's like five h something. I don't even know what five HTP okay. Yes. Absolutely. Love it.

1:09:38We hate we all together. It's great. I really, really like it. Yeah. And he used to just go to sleep and stay asleep. Really nice. Yeah. That wonderful really good one. Wonderful wonderful. We'll talk more about that in just a second. Sleep is one of the categories. So yeah. But so yeah we talked about genetic and we talked about metabolic, which relates to mitochondrial function and how we've been able to support him there. The second big category is seizures or epilepsy. Basically, you know, the brain's electrical function.

1:10:14What do you remember about Rowan's path? Yeah. So that was, really scary. And that was something that came up also in the genetics, where he was more prone to that. So right away you had testing and we, I think for a while we were doing it yearly, to make sure that everything was good and that that always felt really good to me because the more that I looked into it, it was so much more common than a lot of people think. And so, yeah, that was that was something that we did for quite some time. Monitoring. Yes. We're monitoring with him with regular eggs.

1:10:51Yeah. Electroencephalogram. Psyllium. He would come in to the clinic. We put the electrodes on the scalp and the measure. Yeah. And did he ever end up having any seizures? No. Nope. I mean, yeah, and everything's been good and. Yeah, I mean, you also send us home on time, too. We did it in clinic and out of clinic. Yes. Perform. Yeah. But it was pretty regular that we were doing that. Yes. Yeah. But he hasn't needed one in a while. You know he's been, he's been doing pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. Good. The third category is sleep.

1:11:27So let's talk about sleep because I know it was a struggle early on. Yeah. Now this has been a big one for him. He's very sensitive to it. Yeah. When he was little, I think Christopher, like Joe said, we didn't sleep for the first six years of his life. I felt like it. And. Yeah, and that's what it it did. Like, we did melatonin, and that's what you helped us with was really just helping us sleep. Sleep hygiene. Just kind of teaching us what we could do to help support his sleep. I think what we were feeding him. And when we started working with nutrition, I think that also aided in that.

1:12:05And so, yeah, so that that was a game changer for us. Is asleep. Got a happier kid because he was sleeping. Yeah. And even now which is kind of cool. He will come and he'll tell us if you can't fall asleep or something. But you can fall asleep a lot quicker, and, and then he's just so much more aware, like, mom, I didn't sleep well, and, like, we could talk about it, so that's kind of cool, too. Yeah. I didn't know if you fell asleep at the time or we had a video in there any majority of the night smoothing. You just have to fall asleep for a little bit, pop up and move and look around and talk or cry or scream.

1:12:47Yeah, I remember, I remember looking at those videos with, yeah. Oh yes. And that was also one of the reasons why continuing to monitor through EEGs was important, because we were wondering if that was part of that was disrupting his sleep. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Remember all that? Yeah. I'm so glad. So five HTP that he's taking now five hydroxy tryptophan is excellent. That can be very helpful for sleep. Yeah. Supports really it's a natural way to support neurotransmitter systems, to nurture, to foster sleep.

1:13:26Yeah. It's been working really well. Really really well. Yeah. I think he forgot to take it or you know, we we got home and, he the next day he was like, oh, I forgot. Okay. I, he really likes it. He does it sleeps better. So yeah. Good to know that. I always ask him kind of how do you feel on it. And he's really aware of, how he feels. So I feel. Awesome. And then the fourth category is gastrointestinal symptoms and health. Yeah. So feeding them this one. Yeah. So tell me what what has it been like that was very hard for us with feeding.

1:14:04Rowan did not like a lot of things. Hardly anything. And so that was always my concern with feeding him enough and supporting his health. And you guys helped out a ton with that, with textures. I remember feeding school, and he did it with a little friend, and they brought different stuff and just to tolerate food on the plate. And that was a big victory moment. And then to touch it, that's another big victory moment. And now he's at the point where we can just be like, hey Rowan, you need to eat this and he'll eat it. This is awesome. Except zucchini, that one just he's a no go for him.

1:14:41But yeah, it was it was rough for a really long time. And then we ended up finding out he had so many allergies. So when you did all the allergy testing and why his GI was really messed up, he just hurt to eat. Yeah. He had a lot of runny stools and, and I think we ended up finding a parasite, you know, that I'm like, there is a lot of I've got things that were were going on. And I think even now, that's where we really put a lot of focus on is, gut health in our house for him especially.

1:15:17And it started with throwing a can I see I said yes. And what are the foods that he has allergies to. Well what's interesting is he's kind of grown out of that and he can tolerate them eliminating them and figuring out what they were and just kind of getting them healthier has made him more tolerant to things. So right now, what he can not eat is, things that have canola oil and, that are like deep fried in that can't really tolerate it. And shrimp shrimp is a no go that out the other day.

1:15:53And sunflower seed oil before he could not tolerate it and something now he can yeah. It doesn't make him have any hives or anything or swallow them. So, but he stays away from oils and sunflower seed seed oils. Our biggest one. So would you like avocado oil or olive oil with things? And then processed foods. You just. It doesn't work too well in his stomach. We do a lot of whole foods, and he's just happier, seeing it in his face.

1:16:29His eyes get really puffy. We actually went to the fair the other day, yesterday, and, we had some stuff, and I looked at him this morning and you can see it already in his face. It starts showing up. Yeah. So yeah, bro. And I'm still sensitive, but, you know, vegetables and grains and meats we can tolerate really well and we just get creative with it. Yeah, I remember he he would even he reacted even more. And I remember he worked with an allergist because he really had almost he could have life threatening, you know these really histamine responses hives swelling.

1:17:06And we saw all of that and a lot of skin like, you know, cashews rashes and things. So and he could also have like the kind of diarrhea response to it. So that's our big one. Still, if if you eat something that had it like we missed it right away. Yeah. Yeah. So that was a really important area for us to focus on. And, and to ensure he could eat enough to get the nutrition he needed to grow and support his muscle growth. And how tall is he now? He's got to be like five, eight. He's so tall because, I mean, he's going to be five seven because we were eye to eye and stuff.

1:17:47Yeah, the fifth category is we call it broadly mental health. So things like anxiety, attention, mood. Yeah. So, that's huge. Ramon has a lot of anxiety. And I would say in the beginning he was fearful up quite a bit. So I remember that you guys having the Rockwall in there and, him conquering his fear to to climb up the rock wall and, or just do anything, really. He was just is more fearful. And I don't feel like he I feel like we can walk him through a lot of stuff and he tries a lot of stuff.

1:18:24Yesterday at the fair, he went on the swing for the first time. It was one that kind of drops you down. And that is. I was very surprised. So yeah, dealing with his anxiety has been huge. Do you like magnesium? We never did any, medication necessarily for it. It was more. I think his environment helped. I think the therapies really helped. Getting support from mom and dad to help support him helped. Or doing, when he was meeting with, like, the therapist was talk therapy.

1:19:00Yes. Talk therapy. Yeah. I was doing that and and helping him identify his emotions, I think huge. So then he can talk to us or, Yeah. Articulate what's going on. Yeah, a lot more. Yeah. I think those methods have really helped, with his anxiety. Awesome, awesome. And sleep and attention and his ability to pay attention. Yeah. Yeah. We did. We've done stuff with that. He was sensitive to a few different medications that we tried. And you were so flexible and had so many different options for us to, to kind of work through.

1:19:40We also did that test where it looked at all of his how he would react to medications. Yes. From his look at him. Yeah, that was really, really cool. That made me feel, even more confident when we were trying stuff. Yeah. But yeah, there was that. And that helps too. So when Rowan does need it, he's gotten better at, being able to sit and do schoolwork, and we do smaller times, for him. So he doesn't take it often.

1:20:15He hasn't actually for quite some time, which has been nice. Yeah, but it does help if he does need it. Yes. And that's, the stimulant medication for it. Yeah. Is it all good? So that one. I think that's right. Yes. Yeah. And that one seemed to work the best for him. Yes. Yeah. And he it's great to hear how he feels on it. He's articulating. So I kind of want to take it today. I don't know I think I'm okay today. You know like I, I don't need it to do work. I can do it. So I was like yeah I need it. I need some help today. So that's always really nice too.

1:20:51Good, good, good. And that that segues directly into the sixth category and the last one of the medical group, which is medication management. So in addition, has he been on any other medication besides the vocal in for attention or attention? Yeah, I think we did. I think we tried a few and terrible with the name so but I think we tried a few maybe gone for see that. Yes, we did that one. That one wasn't the best for him. He, it was interesting kind of watching. He he retreated a lot, to himself.

1:21:26We were on a camping trip when we had noticed. And he likes being outside, and he likes camping, and, he just wanted to stay away and, Yeah. That one. And you didn't. He was a little bit moodier on that one, too. So we ended up switching him. Yeah. But yeah. And I think the other one we tried were, I don't remember, but there was one where he, when I could tell when he was coming off and he would be really agitated. And so that one just it just didn't work for him. Yeah. For the one that we have now, I just I feel like it. I feel like it's great.

1:22:01I just there aren't really highs or lows in it. He's very consistent smell and and still happy to be around us, which I think is something that he'll do is it's a big sign where he like retreats. Yeah. I think it's so important also for parents to know that there are a lot of different medications to consider, because often what happens is there's a reflex that some doctors will immediately start, one of the antipsychotic medications like Risperdal or Abilify or, you know. Yeah.

1:22:37So that's I think that's one of the things that when you work with an autism specialist doctor, they actually have a much broader medication toolkit. And we've never gone with antipsychotics for Rowan. He's never needed them. And I think it's important for families to know they have options. Yeah, 100%. I know sometimes those medications are wonderful and very, very helpful. And we, you know, I use them the doctors, we use them when it's helpful. But you always you want to be able to use the right medication for the child, not just give every child the same medication.

1:23:15Yes, exactly. Okay. So the next we got through the medical ones and then the next three are all developmental and behavioral domains. Okay. So let's talk about those now. And just like what Rowan's able to do now. So yeah communication socialization sensory motor skills and also behavior like you know, what can he do for himself in terms of independent self-care and things like that? Yeah, this is exciting. Okay. So Rowan is a do kiddos and Rowan to McLean one.

1:23:51He's the one that makes his bed every morning and runs a wild card. But he's very independent in that regards. You know, showers by himself does his hair and smile. But, you know, we're just embracing that. That's his love. Brushes his teeth. He has braces now. Putting on his clothes. I remember just that. That was something he couldn't do. He could not put on his clothes. And so he has come a long, long way. And he gets up and say, hey, you do your routine and he knows what to do.

1:24:27Washes his face. It's really cool. You know, make food for himself. Certain things. We're working on that, still. But it's more of, he knows what he can do, and he'll he'll he'll he'll get himself food if he needs it. It's really nice. Now, Rowan's very independent. Yeah. Yeah, very, very independent. Never thought that was going to be, you know something? I never thought that you'd be able to live on his own. And more and more, I'm confident that he will. Fantastic.

1:25:02And what is the language like is communication. What kinds of things do you talk about. See. Have long since he does. Rowan still narrate. So we get to hear about a lot of what he's thinking through his narrations, which is fine. And then kind of drive us into conversations because he's, yeah, he talks about a lot of things, but what he's into right now is anime. That's our new probably last month and a half. Or he's trying to there's a character called One Piece, or the show is called One Piece. And, there's a character in there and his name is monkey de Luffy.

1:25:39And I'm around town talking to me about this, and I'm trying to stay engaged. And then I'm like, understand? Because I wasn't, and then I guess there's, I don't remember what it's called, but it's not a cartoon. It's it's speak my mind. Anyways, it's a show that came on, so we all watched as a family. So it's like, okay, well, we may need to do I need to suck it up and, you know, watch this and enjoy it with them. So then we have something to talk about. And it ended up being pretty cute. And the character that he likes is this pirate. And this pirate is he's stretchy and skinny and just everyone takes him.

1:26:17Not seriously. It's kind of aloof. And except he conquers all the things he's, He says he's going to be the captain of the pirate ship, and he is. He's super sweet and brings everything in really kind person. And everyone takes him for granted and thinks that he just. He's not there or, and it it reminds me of how so much I'm going to sing you the character. And when you see it, you're like, yeah. Yep. That's. And just the way the character is, that's really Rowan's super kind. He's really good with all the kids.

1:26:54Watching him play. He's very, he includes people. I think that's my favorite thing is watching him play where I'm like, this used to be such a struggle, and you are just. You're excelling at it. You're you're doing great with friends and you're staying engaged. And it's just it's it's pleasing. Yeah. So. So tell me more about his social life. Yeah. Right now we do Emma and and so we have a big group with that. And then we have some homeschool friends that we get to hang out with, and it's grown. So since we moved, it was it was hard at first.

1:27:31And then there is more social butterfly if he wants to play, he plays and and watch him, before some of the kids will, they I think kids sometimes think that maybe he's not paying attention to something, because he was, like, stimming or doing something like that. And then to watch someone stand up for himself has been really cool. He is he's doing really good. So. Yeah, I couldn't ask for more. Yeah, I remember you told me he was even. He's making sense of relationships.

1:28:07Yes. And feelings that he has for friends. And, and like, the depth of his understanding was just amazing. I, I'm definitely surprised at that. I think I definitely was not giving him enough credit on what he was taking in and what he understands, and to watch him, or listen to him in conversations with other kids or with his brother and just Rowan at Rowan knows a ton. Language has always been more difficult to express it, but I mean, every day it gets a little bit better.

1:28:46And listening to him articulate himself or what she knows or the questions that he asked me, I'm just you have told me some of these insights where one has. Can you think of some things that he said to you where you were like, oh my gosh, his emotional understanding, and he has really come a long way. Can you think of anything he said recently? Yeah. So he we went on a camping trip and we had met a friend. And she's super sweet and they all played so well. And we get back into our camper and he turns me, we're about to go to bed, and he goes, mom, is I did you I think he asked, did you know, that you love dad or something like that?

1:29:27Or how did you know you loved dad? And then I go, I even that first was really sarcastic and very dismissive. Honestly. And, he he goes, well, does he give you butterflies? And then he goes that the little girl is like, I got I get butterflies when I think about her. And so I panicked right away, like, I just, I was dead in the face. He was just like, don't react, I don't react, I don't know what to say in this moment. And I was like, it's. And I just, you know, reassured him. And that's totally normal and it's okay. And and that it's really sweet.

1:30:03And then I think the mom mode to done being like, oh gosh. Like, I don't know what to say in this and let's bring this back. So I think we got home a couple days later and I brought it up again. So like, how are you feeling about that? And, he started asking me, how do you know it's the right person and how do you know it's the right one? And, and so at first I wanted to be like, no one's going to be right. And then and I was like, no, these are great questions. And you're putting me on the spot. Robin. So, yeah, I, I ended up just kind of telling him that, like, you know, taking care of yourself and making sure that you feel good and knowing who you are or like those, that's where you should focus on.

1:30:46And eventually the right person will present themselves, and they will love you the way that you are. Because I think in the conversation he was talking about like what he should do and change. And it's not about changing. It's about just like learning who you are. And, and, it was a really sweet conversation. I'm definitely not giving it just. But yeah, it was it was it was really sweet to hear that he's thinking about that stuff and what you can do. Yeah. And that that's something that he wants and desires and scream really has. Yeah. That's amazing.

1:31:21And and he's coming to you with his questions and it's just I mean, those are precious moments, you know. So yeah. But it doesn't it can be put you in a panic. I've been there too. Should the I should not say the right thing I please. Yeah. But you can always come back to it. That's the thing. Yeah. Sometimes it'll surprise you that the something's been on their mind and you don't know exactly what to say. But you know, it's important what you say. You can give yourself time and come back to it. So that's a big one for me because I think a lot of times I just, I, you know, I'm in a rush and then I sit down and I'm just like, let me just think about how to bring this to you in a, in a way that you're going to understand.

1:32:04Because the way the things I understand versus you is so different. And so, yeah, let's just let's just bring this let's read it. And also giving him the confidence that we will talk about this. I think back to that one deal, too, but I'm not dismissing you a lot of times, like when he doesn't have the answer. But you can talk about this. We'll figure it out together. Yeah. That was something he had asked me. That was big. Was he was and this is just the other day is now that he's becoming more of like. Or it was will he will he always be my baby?

1:32:40Oh, yeah. And now that he's going through puberty and things are changing, like how how will my love. I think it was like, how am I love? Change. Like, will it change or did he say it? Did he say to you, Will I always be your baby? Yeah. Like he was asking Will I, will I always be your baby? So not in those words. But it was. That's what he was asking about being like, you're always my baby. Always. And then, I think my first response definitely threw me off. It caught me off guard. One of those moments, I'm like, what does he mean by it?

1:33:15I kind of overthought it. And then I, and I said, you know, we'll figure it out. It's like you're growing up and things are changing. And then I think it was like driving home. Why didn't I just say, no? Nothing changes. I just love you more. And I, you know, I went back to him as like, hey, no matter what your age, you will always be my baby. And I love you no matter what. Everything's changing and that's okay. And like, so I tried to make. I felt better about that. Make myself too, that I could handle that. But I know nothing changes. You're always like me. You're my first love. And love you no matter what you want.

1:33:51A very grown man. I do still love you. Like. Why did you say that? But what I meant, what I drilled in later. Just that he's, like, thinking about that stuff where he's recognizing that he's changing. He's recognizing, like, things are so different for him. And what does that look like? What do relationships look like with mom, with dad, with brother, or with, you know, all these other people that is needed and things are shifting. He's not he's not a baby anymore. Yeah, yeah. Those ones for him. I think that's an important message is that as parents, we always.

1:34:27I, I kind of evaluating ourselves. Do I do this right. And I do that right all the time. And I just think you've got chance. You have you have more chances. So don't worry. Don't do too harsh on yourself. Don't judge yourself. Know yourself. But if you think back in there things you want to do differently or say differently, go ahead. You know your yeah, your childhood will still be there and be listening. And yeah, yeah, I think our kids are so forgiving. Honestly. They want to see the good in us and if we can give them the opportunity to do that versus, you know, parent out of ego and and having our guard up because I said something wrong where I'm just going to leave it that way and just it creates not a healthy relationship like in that abuse.

1:35:14And so many times I go and I'm like, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. It's all I can say. Like I've lost. And then it's sweet because I will always be like, no, it's okay. And I'm like, no, it's not okay. I don't want anyone to ever treat you like that. Or if I snap or like it's it's not okay. Like you don't let anyone treat you that way. You know, that's really important doing that. Because I think they're they want to be so quick to like, it's okay, mommy and like, it's fine. And no, like, I have to own it. Just like I would hope you own when, you know, you mess up. Do you? Yeah. Yeah.

1:35:49So there's a lot of learning happening all the time. All the time? All the time. Well, maybe I'll get to the very last, category of the whole child view, which is we call child and family wellness. So. And we can wrap up there, we can just talk a little bit about, you know, how you're doing, how your family's doing. And yeah, tell tell me more. Yeah. So much has changed. Like Chris is retired. So that has been the biggest change for us this year. And it is it's been really nice watching, Gavin and Rowan and Chris have such a different relationship and figure out this relationship together.

1:36:31Now that they're both going through puberty and they're looking towards Chris for so much more, it's actually really nice. I feel like I can kind of sit back a little bit more, which is great. I will take it. And then there's also kind of like, I miss I miss my babies, but it's nice seeing them, want to take more initiative. And the things that they, that they like. And one of the things that we do as a family is me and watching Rowan overcome. There's a lot of fear that comes that we see there. But he pushes through, and we've been doing it.

1:37:06I think it's now about almost two years, maybe a little longer. And in the beginning where he couldn't walk into, the gym without melting down or, you know, being upset or looking like he's really scared. I remember, his sensei gave him his staff to, like, Hold and Justin. So just stand next to me, like, you don't have to do anything too. Now, Rowan's out there, and he's lifting, rocks that they do like rock lifting or he's, sparring with kids, and you just, he's helping other kids or giving them instruction like, oh, we're supposed to do this or and watching him pay attention.

1:37:45Love that part. I love that some of these, you know, he he's talking. It was all for a little. But other time than like, he's so focused. And that's really cool too that what what led you to pursue MMA? Mixed martial arts. Yeah. What? Yeah. What? Yeah. Like your family to try? We did. We did soccer. That was not our thing. We did baseball. Definitely not our thing. We did track. And he broke his foot the first week. Yeah. Would you still might do that again? Because he definitely likes running. He's just there is.

1:38:21I wanted to get him in in some type of sport sometime infrastructure. And then we were also kind of phasing out occupational therapy and, and these therapies in the clinic as well. But there is still I wanted him to have, you know, work still work on his creation. He's very is still my little noodle. And, yeah. So while Christopher was gone, it's also kind of just thinking, like what? I wanted the boys to have some more masculine energy, honestly, around around do. And so we went to the gym, and at first, I think we were they were looking at, like a ninja class and they're like, oh, check out the, other MMA class.

1:39:02And it's like, oh, we could try this. And so yeah, it just it clicked, it clicked there and they just totally saw Rowan, which I feel like that was a big one for me where he met him, where he was at, and he constantly where he's at, and he pushes them a little bit more. And watching Rowan develop more discipline, was it's just it was great. And also watching Gavin as well. So that's I think that was our biggest thing. And, and then watching the kids push through these tough moments like I should be learning this stuff too.

1:39:39So then I started and then Chris is back and he's doing it with us. So it's like our family thing and it's it's great. It's it's really great for us. Yeah. I'm not it has been so nice to kind of and with with Rowan like to join. Yeah. He'll go, I guess whoever would like. I know Chris just left, but can we go? Got it. Okay. Hi, Rob. Oh. Hi, everyone. Hi, Gavin. Hi.

1:40:14Oh, my gosh, it's so great. You both. How are you doing? I'm doing great. How are you doing? I'm doing pretty good. Yeah, each too. They both do. You all? Yeah. Yeah. Good. Your mom was just telling me about, my. Yeah. Do you guys like doing that? Yeah. For sure bro. I wonder if I could see one of your new Lego creations. You're involved.

1:40:50Oh that's another thing he's been into is drawing, which I think is pretty cool because holding a pencil and writing has always been fairly difficult for us. And then he has taken up drawing and yeah, we're pretty good. Do win this one. Took some battle damage in the war. Oh that's beautiful I love that I, I made that, Oh wow. So we do a lot of drawing these days. We went to the library and just got a book. Drawing book.

1:41:25Oh, you also like that. Yeah. Yeah. That's cool, that's cool. And, and I see the two dogs. What are their names. This is meatball. Meatball cat oozy. Yeah. Meatball. Meatball. That's a ball. And caring for one with the chicken. Yeah. Oh okay. Thank you. So great. That's so great. Well gosh, it's been just so, so good to see you. Yeah. So good to see you, too. Oh, thanks. It feels like yesterday.

1:42:00It feels like yesterday that we saw each other last. Yeah. Do you remember where we were? Doctor's office. You go. It's a doctor's. Yeah. All right, well, thank you. And I'll. I'll let you get back to your Sunday dinner is to hang out. All right. Go chop down some some wood. All right. We'll see you. Thank you, thank you. I. My hope is that these conversations help you feel more informed, less overwhelmed, and more connected to the science, to your child, and to a community that's learning and growing together.

1:42:46If you found today's discussion helpful, please share it with another parent or professional who might benefit. Remember, this journey is not about fear, it is about discovery. Your child's mind is magnificent. With understanding and compassion, they can thrive. Thank you for joining me today. I'm Doctor Suzanne Goh and this has been magnificent minds. Stay hopeful, stay curious. And remember, you are not alone.